Curse

Kalnaur · May 05, 2005, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bone_White_Haze

Must get level (ding). Must find new item (ding). Must find stuff to make new item (ding). Must get to new area (ding). Must fight new monster (ding). Must be unique. Must be different. Must be an individual who stands out (ding ding ding).

So what you are saying is that if a player likes to think for themselves instead of the team, they are not welcome? I would just like some clarification here.

Drylnn · May 05, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bone_White_Haze

>
But now you come to a game where the goal is to get your TEAM to the top. Promote your guild, hit the top of the ladder. No one will remember your (individual) character unless he's part of that top team, or the top ten, or whatever. We do not NEED a feeder-bar, there is no monthly fee to entice you into giving up month after month. You hit the 'top' in a week or two, then there really not much more in the way of goodies to get.

And you're still looking for the feeder-bar. How can I feed my individual ego? Must have unique stuff!

I'm sorry. I thought this was a game for all. I understand the game is centered for PVP, but that doesn't mean it can't cater to casual players who want an RPG experience, not a PVP experience. That doesn't mean there has to be unique items that unbalance PVP. As I've suggested elsewhere, there could be RPG only items that you can't equip in PVP. That would solve a lot of the problems of giving the RPG people something to look forward to and not unbalance pvp.

I *like* being able to find goodies, even if they are just items with a different look. I don't like being told that I'm not welcome because I don't buy into your love of pvp. I find pvp fine and all, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only avenue in the game.

primal98 · May 05, 2005, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drylnn

I'm sorry. I thought this was a game for all. I understand the game is centered for PVP, but that doesn't mean it can't cater to casual players who want an RPG experience, not a PVP experience. That doesn't mean there has to be unique items that unbalance PVP. As I've suggested elsewhere, there could be RPG only items that you can't equip in PVP. That would solve a lot of the problems of giving the RPG people something to look forward to and not unbalance pvp.

I *like* being able to find goodies, even if they are just items with a different look. I don't like being told that I'm not welcome because I don't buy into your love of pvp. I find pvp fine and all, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only avenue in the game.

Ahhhh finally

That's what I've been waiting to here

I think there should be some cross between PVP and RPG. Hey you like to PVP great, maybe they restrict a bunch of items, you like the RPG, great, use them. I dont mean having OMFG TEH MOST AWESOME SWORD EVAH DOING 7000000 damage! Something nice like my axe "5-10 damage" and something other than "precious" or "highly salvagable".... how about.... +1 ice damage, 10% chance to get more gold.... ummm stuff like that. I couldnt personally give 2 cents about the PVP, sorry, not why I bought the game. I don't mind playing a few rounds, but I bought it for the RPG part, it's what I like.... and well they even make u choose at start RPG/PVP so I assume they were trying to tailor it to both worlds

I love the game, and they are trying to tailor it to everyone, I mean look at it, 56k, pvp, rpg, play alone or with people, so why not throw in a couple of cool items, make doing that quest just that much worth it? You can't honestly say that the thrill of running around a map, hacking through hordes of beats, dying countless times, and finally delivering that wretched item and getting a "War Hammer"... nothign special, no "+1 to fire", "+1 health regenarartion", not even a war hammer with a sparkle... makes u jump in glee

I dont think any small additions to weapons would really hurt anyone that much in PVP.... and if they do, restrict them :P

~prime

Jackell · May 06, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

A huge problem is people are taking this game as your standard "Grind level cool item" On-line game. It's not. Think more, Counter-strike in a fantasy realm.

I like the rpg element, I'm playing the story, and I'm enjoying it. But the hardcore rpgers are going to have to realise that, while this game has some rpg elements to it, it's directed to us. The pvpers. Just like we had to accept that WoW and EQ2 are directed to you, instead of us.

And as for the debate for "We want cool weapons that just give a little bonus, that's all we ask for..." PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME! Your not going to get cool crap like that for a while, but guess what, you do!

I crafted (OMG you have to craft instead of grind and buy from a store?) A hammer that did good damage to begin with, but then it did extra fire damage AND gave a +1 to my fire. I'm a ranger, so I sold, but I still had it. It's still there.

Instead of handing you a good item, you have to work for the base item, then work for the upgrades. I like this much better. When you have one, then you REALLY earned it, instead of following some dots on a map, and you know what else is great about this system? You can create an item that suits your character like this. Instead of "Crap this quest gave me a longsword that does 50000 damage but I'm a wizard" it's more "Well, I have this staff. Let's see what I can find to make it better for me.

Drylnn · May 06, 2005, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

I like the rpg element, I'm playing the story, and I'm enjoying it. But the hardcore rpgers are going to have to realise that, while this game has some rpg elements to it, it's directed to us. The pvpers. Just like we had to accept that WoW and EQ2 are directed to you, instead of us.

The problem is, I don't play WoW or EQ2, and this game is cool because it CAN BE FOR BOTH! I'm not asking for the state of PVP to be changed. I'm just asking for bones to be thrown at the people for whom PVP isn't the reason they play. Why is that such a wrong thing? The game was sold as a CRPG, but they also stated it would be open for the RPG crowd too. So why do people get so upset when others say they don't want to have PVP be their main focus? There are simple solutions (well, they may not be so simple in game code) that can allow the PVPers to keep their game focus and allow the RPGers their thing too. I don't want Diablo-esque item things that unbalance everything, but I think that RPG-only items that can't be used in PVP that offer a bit of uniqueness is a fair request.

That doesn't mean we have to have the Uberblade which does a billion pts of dmg, but I would like to think that there isn't necessarily a highest possible item I could have that everyone else will have because it is the highest possible thing they could get and thus, everyone has it to survive pvp. I can already see the game starting to have people ask "What combinations work best for PVP" and the classes refining for PVP battles because they work best. I argue that wasn't the goal of the creators. In theory, every class should be as viable given teamwork on the guild team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackel

And as for the debate for "We want cool weapons that just give a little bonus, that's all we ask for..." PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME! Your not going to get cool crap like that for a while, but guess what, you do!

I love how you just label people. Maybe you're speaking to someone else, but I *do* these things. I'm just asking that there's not one set of items that say, every warrior using a sword has, in order to win pvp, and thus no uniqueness. Give me other things to find while I quest. It won't affect the pvpers (with the tag thing I suggest), it won't affect game balance, and it will make others happy too How is it a bad thing to be inclusive? It's my game just as much as it is yours.... or it SHOULD be.

primal98 · May 06, 2005, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Hahahha Drylnn I am officially going to shut up, no one can put it better than u can :P

Jackell · May 06, 2005, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drylnn

The problem is, I don't play WoW or EQ2, and this game is cool because it CAN BE FOR BOTH! I'm not asking for the state of PVP to be changed. I'm just asking for bones to be thrown at the people for whom PVP isn't the reason they play. Why is that such a wrong thing? The game was sold as a CRPG, but they also stated it would be open for the RPG crowd too. So why do people get so upset when others say they don't want to have PVP be their main focus? There are simple solutions (well, they may not be so simple in game code) that can allow the PVPers to keep their game focus and allow the RPGers their thing too. I don't want Diablo-esque item things that unbalance everything, but I think that RPG-only items that can't be used in PVP that offer a bit of uniqueness is a fair request.

That doesn't mean we have to have the Uberblade which does a billion pts of dmg, but I would like to think that there isn't necessarily a highest possible item I could have that everyone else will have because it is the highest possible thing they could get and thus, everyone has it to survive pvp. I can already see the game starting to have people ask "What combinations work best for PVP" and the classes refining for PVP battles because they work best. I argue that wasn't the goal of the creators. In theory, every class should be as viable given teamwork on the guild team.

I love how you just label people. Maybe you're speaking to someone else, but I *do* these things. I'm just asking that there's not one set of items that say, every warrior using a sword has, in order to win pvp, and thus no uniqueness. Give me other things to find while I quest. It won't affect the pvpers (with the tag thing I suggest), it won't affect game balance, and it will make others happy too How is it a bad thing to be inclusive? It's my game just as much as it is yours.... or it SHOULD be.

Dude, your talking about special items that give bonuses. You want those. Not something to make you uber, but something to have to add uniqeness and make your skills better.

Read my post. I said they ARE there. Those items you want and are asking for ARE in there, ok?

The quests give you the base item. These quest items are usually better than the standard items you'll get from drops at the time.

Then you collect upgrades to make your weapon do what you want. See my point?

Point:

The items you want ARE in the game. There's just a different system of obtaining them.

Example:

Blazing War hammer of Mastery
Damage - it does some
Fire damage - 3 - 8
Hammer Mastery +1

That's a real weapon. I had one earlier. Isn't that the kind of item you were asking them to put in? IT'S IN THERE.

Kalnaur · May 06, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

As long as there are items past base ones in the game, I'm happy. Also, just a heads up, I have a friend playing the game. He had picked up two bows. They had the same exact name. One was better than the other. Do not figure that name means quality or equality.

Jackell · May 06, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalnaur

I have a friend playing the game. He had picked up two bows. They had the same exact name. One was better than the other. Do not figure that name means quality or equality.

Thank you Kalnaur, for helping to prove my point.

As for items better than base? Oh yeah. Weapons vary in damage, going up to the 20's which is the best that I've heard of so far.

Then, there's dozens of upgrade materials you can use to turn your weapon into exactly what you need for your character.

Since two people can have the same build but play differently, there will be a bunch of variations on weapons, instead of just 2 or three that they all use.

Each weapon gets two slots to customize them. For example, bows get grips and strings, hammers get heads and grips, so forth and so forth.

There's a large variety of upgrades available as well, so like I said, you can customize your weapon dozens of ways to suit your style, and make your weapon unique, and with expansion packs there will be more.

Then further in the gamee there's Dragon Swords, and Godly bows and stuff like that, but I'm not far enough in to talk about those.

Drylnn · May 06, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

Since two people can have the same build but play differently, there will be a bunch of variations on weapons, instead of just 2 or three that they all use.

We'll see in say, 2 months. I'm already seeing a refinement of class and skill combinations by people and I think you'll start seeing groups of the same exact people with the same skills and very little variation on items.

If that was the game designers' intention (and to some degree, it was, because they did want it to come down to skill over items), that's fine. If they wanted to see diverse strategy, I'm not sure how that will work out given time. Right now, everything is novel and new and people will try a bunch of stuff. Given time though, I think certain "strategies" will become rote, and people will start using the same tactics and classes and builds when they see a certain one have an overwhelming success rate.

But I'm no prophet. Time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

Jackell · May 06, 2005, 06:53 AM // 06:53

So, how does it matter to an rpger how the pvpers are gearing their skills and weapons?

You asked for uniqueness in weapons, and there it is. If certain things work for pvp, the pvpers will use those. However, PvP and PvE are extremely different, and sometimes require different skillsets, and sometimes different gear.

The rpgers will base their gear off of what they want to use, and what works best in their environment, not what works well in some PvP.

Obviously, if your fighting mobs that use cold damage, Frostbound armor and weapons that do fire damage will be what a lot of people use. What your fighting dictates your gear more than what works in PvP.

Pevil Lihatuh · May 06, 2005, 11:14 AM // 11:14

ok just posted this in Items (A suggestion on Rarity)

Quote:

methinks keep the same stats on items as we have already. but make a ton of new graphics.

e.g. right now we have that super cool looking fiery sword like Rurik wields. So expand on that. Sacred did it, they added new sets and things (ok so sacred IS about uber weapons but shhh) but they also added cool new graphics for regular items, and now you get people who will only use a sword that looks like such and such because it goes with their armour/char personality etc.

Make the graphics rare drops. Example you could have bows that have 'animal carvings' on each end, of the different creatures you can tame. So i may find one (after a few months) with a stalker head on it... but i have a strider as my pet. So then I go and find someone who has a strider bow and trade with them. Things like that. They'd be cool. But the bow would be no better than that longbow that the ranger over there has. It'd just look cooler And not only would it look cool, but you could say "I had to battle through such and such area to get it" so people would realise you had great skill to reach it in the first place. Perhaps only find the new-graphic items in the 'uber' quests that the hall of heroes opens up?

and now wish to add this in here. How about having true uniques. Not 'oh they're so hard to find they're called uniques, but this person next to me has one'. No. I mean 'theres only one in the entire world of guild wars'. Impossibly hard to drop, and say its the Unique bow, it has the same stats as the top bow does, but looks totally different and has a unique name. Can still be upgraded with runes (so cna still be customised to completely fit your needs) but the name will never change when upgraded.

So I could find "Bow of Charrhorn" or something and add to it a +1 to beastmastery and a +30 health. Someone else could find the "Krytan Bow of Frost" and get fire damage on it.

Bone_White_Haze · May 06, 2005, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drylnn

I'm sorry. I thought this was a game for all. I understand the game is centered for PVP, but that doesn't mean it can't cater to casual players who want an RPG experience, not a PVP experience.

Indeed. But that rpg experience is effectively limited to your training period (only 20 levels, a few weeks if you play pretty casually). Beyond that point, there won't be a lot of new items you haven't seen, nothing more to aquire, no more 'dings' to be found.

It's a very short haul, the span where this game resembles a standard MMO. After that, a lot of you are going to be very disappointed, because as far as 'normal' MMO play goes, that's it, that's all there is. A lot more map to explore, if you wish, but no more dings.

The thing is, with all of these players coming in from conventional MMO's, what happens next? From past experience with games with level caps, what happens next after players reach that cap is: "Why can't we have more levels, more goodies, more skills, more equipment, more grind." (ding, ding, ding, ding). They can, they will, ask for more feeder bar to press.

But the devs in THIS game (very likely) will not give it to them. A standard MMO is not what they've set out to build here.

Roleplaying can take place in any game, under any conditions, with or without props. It does not require rare items. Despite what other games have trained you to expect, there is no requirement of newer better goodies to reinforce roleplay.

And a competitive team ladder game not only doesn't need unique goodies, but they're actually counterproductive towards creating a balanced combat system.

So 'rares' aren't a roleplay requirement, and they aren't a team combat requirement. Why do we need them here, again?

(Answer: Habit, what other MMOs have trained me to expect. Not enough justification.)

Jackell · May 06, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quick question, do we really need two threads right next to each other about how people need rare items to survive?

Kalnaur · May 06, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I see nothing wrong with habit, if we truly enjoy it.

However, I am beginning to understand. This game is similar in it's weapons/ dropped items to Champions of Norrath/Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2. Not such an abundance of different weapons as there is weapons that are different, for different situaitions. You don't take an Ice bow to the frozen north, if you know What I'm saying. This game seems more like a mix of the aforementioned games as well as Legend of Zelda and Metroid, both games focused on a little bit of building "level" (health, energy, hearts) but more emphasis on the abilities of the character in question. The change in this game is that they don't stop at the same time. Health and Mana stops early, while items and other skills keep going. This is all gathered from what I have read about this game.

Pevil Lihatuh · May 06, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

no, there's nothing wrong with habit. but its like... well... all rts games. Do you want them all to be clones of AoE? Sure its a good game... but if EVERY rts that came out was like it? You'd buy one and that's it.

Same with MMO's... if they wanna make them all the same, you'd only buy WoW. So having a game without uberweaps is good, coz lets face it, if they turn this into an item farming game, people WILL leave to things like WoW where they can fish or mine etc.

Kalnaur · May 07, 2005, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pevil Lihatuh

no, there's nothing wrong with habit. but its like... well... all rts games. Do you want them all to be clones of AoE? Sure its a good game... but if EVERY rts that came out was like it? You'd buy one and that's it.

Same with MMO's... if they wanna make them all the same, you'd only buy WoW. So having a game without uberweaps is good, coz lets face it, if they turn this into an item farming game, people WILL leave to things like WoW where they can fish or mine etc.

Actually, I'd rather they (RTS games) be innovations off the original, but with similar interface. Just like I usually like the computer D&D games (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights) however I am not saying that I must have every game as carbon copies, and for better or worse I will play this game, mainly to party with friends, kill monsters, and take whatever they give me. I think what most people are looking at is a desire for their characters to be more unique in look as well as deed. It may be centered on the group and the "greater good", but it is nice to know who killed the dragon of doom, and who slaughtered the queen of the Lizard-people (these are for instances). I think, however, that some monsters, quests, etc should be profession specific so as to differentiate one character build from another.

Perhaps this would be another suggestion: little touches that combine the beginning character's primary and secondary job choice. An Elementalist/Necro would look just slightly different from an Elementalist/Mesmer. For those of us not interested in PvP, not interested in equality over appearance, there should be something given to those of us that make us different. We are not a swat team, we are not cookie cutter people, not clones, and in the same way that one game should not be exactly like another, one character should not be exactly like another. There should be visual differences, differences able to be seen even at 5th level, 4th level, while the character is still growing.

Drylnn · May 07, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Before I start this, I'm not trying to pick on Bone_White_Haze in any way. I've just heard the arguments he makes before, so I'm using his arguments as the example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bone_White_Haze

Indeed. But that rpg experience is effectively limited to your training period (only 20 levels, a few weeks if you play pretty casually). Beyond that point, there won't be a lot of new items you haven't seen, nothing more to aquire, no more 'dings' to be found.

It's a very short haul, the span where this game resembles a standard MMO. After that, a lot of you are going to be very disappointed, because as far as 'normal' MMO play goes, that's it, that's all there is. A lot more map to explore, if you wish, but no more dings.

Why is it assumed that an RPG person must have level "dings" in order to be happy? By that logic, no one would ever be happy playing a game like NWN once they reached the level cap: No more dings. My answer to that is that it's a silly argument, because there is plenty of enjoyment to be found in other areas. I don't want NWN recreated, because I view this as a superior game. But before someone gets on their high horse and proclaims that "It's because of the level cap being so different! And the items!"... with all due respect, no, those aren't the reasons. I enjoy it for a variety of reasons.

Quote:

The thing is, with all of these players coming in from conventional MMO's, what happens next? From past experience with games with level caps, what happens next after players reach that cap is: "Why can't we have more levels, more goodies, more skills, more equipment, more grind." (ding, ding, ding, ding). They can, they will, ask for more feeder bar to press.

But the devs in THIS game (very likely) will not give it to them. A standard MMO is not what they've set out to build here.

I would argue that the developers will do some combination of what they want and what the dollar demands. That is only good business. In the end, they love their creation, but they also want to make money, or they won't put it up for sale. People seem locked into this "Label RPGers as all feeder bar people who came from other MMOs". The main MMO I ever played was a text MUD, so please don't try to label me.

Quote:

Roleplaying can take place in any game, under any conditions, with or without props. It does not require rare items. Despite what other games have trained you to expect, there is no requirement of newer better goodies to reinforce roleplay.

So 'rares' aren't a roleplay requirement, and they aren't a team combat requirement. Why do we need them here, again?

No, you're right. We also don't need a computer game in order to do any of this. Neither do you. You could easily have friends together and play a PnP game where you compete in guilds. This is just a silly argument. Of course you don't NEED anything in order to do all this stuff, but it's awfully nice to have it. None of this all is a roleplay or team combat requirement when you boil it down, so this argument is kind of a strawman. The real question is, can it cater to both and satisfy you (mostly) and satisfy me (mostly)?

If I thought I was being unreasonable, I would just shut up. But I've asked people in this game who have NEVER played an MMORPG, nor have some of them even played a computer game. And they say some of the same things.

From my end, I don't see how you're affected by RPG-only items like I was suggesting. It doesn't mess up your pvp IF THOUGHT OUT, it doesn't affect your game IF THOUGHT OUT. Yes, a sloppily instituted solution will be to the detriment of the experience. But this can be the RPGers' game just as much as the PVPers. That's the balance needed, and I respectfully disagree with you that change is unnecessary. This game doesn't have to end up being *JUST* a competitive ladder game. It's capable of more, and I'm tired of hearing the standard line that essentially boils down to: "Well, it's OUR game. You just have to deal." If that's the case, why have suggestion forums? You can just say "Deal with it" and never take suggestions.

If this were just a PVP game, they'd just have the arenas and that would be it. This is more than PVP, even if it is centered around PVP, so I ask that we keep both RPGers and PVPers in mind. I'm going out of my way to suggest ideas to try and be somewhat satisfying to both, and I'm sick of hearing: "It's our game [ with the unheard 'Not your game' ] so deal with it or go play some other MMO." I paid the money just as much as you did, and I'm not alone (nor are you).

Drylnn · May 07, 2005, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

Think more, Counter-strike in a fantasy realm.

It's interesting that you bring up this argument. You see, long ago (because I am older than I like to think), there was a game called Half-Life. And it was intended to be one thing for many. Modding did exist, but it was really an afterthought for Valve... not something they seriously expected many people would do, because HL was such a good game.

Then one day, people began to work on a different idea, using Half-Life as the base. They came up with a game within a game that was something different, that catered to people other than those who followed the standard Halflife experience. And I can tell you, in those OLD OLD days, those people were sometimes ridiculed by the HalfLife purists. "It wasn't intended to be this type of game!" "We have our game, you have your Quake offshoots" "Deal with it and stop your whining" and so on and so forth. Those people persevered, because they thought HL could be for more than just the single player experience and the limited HL multiplay. Counter-strike was born, and it catered to other people.

Nowadays, those people aren't ridiculed, and HL2 has CS packaged with it in the box (it's come a LOOOONG way since the early mod days... man, I played it back when installing it was a trial by fire). It doesn't unbalance the HL experience nor does it diminish it. HL doesn't diminish the CS experience either.

I'm sure people can see that the situation here and the item/RPG thing in Guild Wars are not entirely the same. I can think of other games that have more similar ideas, but it's 5:19 am where I am, and my brain is mush. In the end, I rest on the idea that although the primary purpose of a game may be one thing, that doesn't mean you have to say to people "Deal with it." There can be a compromise for both.

BloodSire · May 07, 2005, 09:39 AM // 09:39

I'd like to see longlasting PVE goals to strive for that DO NOT inbalance the game.

Maybe a really "epic" hammer that adds 1 to the max damage of the next most powerful hammer, but has a badass graphic.

It doesn't give you any considerable advantage, yet it gives something to work towards.

My main goal is to dominate in PvP, but there does need to be a raidlike environment so PvErs and anyone who wants a sort of character progression has something to strive for. Now once he achieves his goal will it make him any more powerful? No.

But it is still a goal and witout goals the game will seriously be lacking.